Greenwald: Uncritical Obama Devotion Is Destructive

I have been bothered by the claim of some on MyDD since Barack Obama won the Democratic nomination, that it is inappropriate to discuss anything negative about either the Democratic nomination process, or our Democratic nominee.  Many members have proclaimed that he is now our nominee, and as a result, we must support him wholeheartedly, and refrain from any criticism, or we are not true Democrats.

Many of us know Glenn Greenwald as the author of the column, Unclaimed Territory, at Salon.com.  Mr. Greenwald has consistently and strongly supported Barack Obama in his column.  However, he is a former constitutional law and civil rights litigator, who is deeply involved in the warrantless wiretapping debate.

Well, today, Mr. Greenwald took Obama to task, warned against blindly supporting him, and asked all of us to take Obama to task, as well.

Thursday June 19, 2008 05:39 EDT
Obama, telecoms and the Beltway system

As noted yesterday, Blue Dog Rep. John Barrow of Georgia has been one of the most enthusiastic enablers of the radical and lawless policies of the Bush administration. When running for re-election, he ran ads accusing his own party of wanting to "cut and run in Iraq," and was one of the 21 Blue Dogs to send a letter to Nancy Pelosi demanding that they be allowed to vote for the Rockefeller/Cheney Senate bill to give warrantless eavesdropping powers to the President and amnesty to lawbreaking telecoms.

As a result of all of that, Barrow faces a serious primary challenge in July from State Senator Regina Thomas....  

(snip)

Thomas' positions on both foreign and domestic policy are firmly in line with Barack Obama's views and with the Democratic base in that district, while Barrow has continuously supported the most extremist Bush policies, as he himself proudly boasts....

(snip)

Despite all of this, The Atlanta Constitution-Journal reported yesterday that Barack Obama -- who has been claiming to be so emphatically opposed to warrantless eavesdropping and telecom amnesty, to say nothing of the Iraq War -- taped a radio endorsement this week for Rep. Barrow, with the specific intent to help him defeat Regina Thomas in the Democratic primary....

(snip)

The article highlighted the reason Barrow was so eager to have Obama record an ad endorsing him and why it's so potentially important in helping Barrow win his primary:

Barrow beat a Republican incumbent in 2004 and had tough GOP opposition in 2006. But this April, Barrow picked up unexpected opposition from Regina Thomas, a well-known African-American state senator based in Savannah. Barrow is white, and in past primaries in the 12th District, black voters have cast nearly 70 percent of the ballots.

(snip)

And now Obama turns around and intervenes in a Democratic primary on behalf of one of the worst Bush enablers in Congress -- not in order to help Barrow defeat an even-worse Republican, but to defeat a far better and plainly credible Democratic challenger.

For all of Obama's talk about the wicked ways of Washington, these incumbent protection schemes -- whereby Beltway power factions all help each other stay in power no matter their ideology or positions -- are among the most vital instruments for perpetuating how Washington works. Democratic leaders pretend that they are forced continuously to capitulate to the Bush administration due to their "conservative" members, yet continuously work to keep those same members in power, even when it comes to supporting them against far better Democratic primary challengers.

Obama has made himself a central part of that rancid scheme. Recall that in 2006, Obama -- who now touts his commitment to ending the war -- endorsed Joe Lieberman in his Connecticut primary race over war opponent Ned Lamont, appearing with Lieberman to say: "Joe Lieberman's a man with a good heart, with a keen intellect, who cares about the working families of America . . . . I am absolutely certain that Connecticut's going to have the good sense to send Joe Lieberman back to the United States Senate."

* * * * *

Making matters much worse here, Obama -- who has removed himself almost completely from the pending eavesdropping and telecom amnesty debate -- recorded this ad for Barrow on the eve of that bill's passage, all in order to keep in power a key Democratic supporter of this FISA/amnesty bill. Yet telecom amnesty is not merely a side issue but is one of the purest expressions of what Obama claims so vigorously to oppose in Washington.

(snip)

The proposed compromise would allow a federal district court to dismiss a suit if the company was provided written assurances that Bush authorized their participation in the spy program and that it was legal, sources said.

The telecom amnesty bill is something that has been engineered by telecom lobbyists from start to finish, while Bush officials engineer the part of the bill to provide full-scale warrantless eavesdropping powers. While the ACLU and other grass-roots groups have been shut out of the negotiation over this bill almost completely -- it's been conducted, like most important government processes, totally in the dark -- telecom lobbyists are not only fully informed about what is going on but have been participating directly in the negotiations. Along with Bush officials, it's the telecoms' lobbyists who are "negotiating" with Congress over how to write the law providing for their own amnesty from breaking the laws passed by Congress.

This is everything Obama claims so vehemently to oppose, claims he wants to end. And yet the Congress under the control of his party is about to enact a radical bill to legalize vast new warrantless eavesdropping powers and immunize telecoms who broke our country's laws for years. And not only is Obama doing nothing about any of that, but far more, he's actively intervening in a Democratic primary to help one of the worst enablers of all of this stay in power, while helping to defeat an insurgent, community-based challenger.

None of that is enjoyable to write or accept, but those are just facts. There is a disturbing tendency on all sides to view Obama through a reductive Manichean lens -- either he's the embodiment of pure transformative Good who is going magically to cleanse our polity the minute he takes office, or he's nothing other than a mindless, passive tool of the establishment whose pretty rhetoric masks a barren ambition for power and who is no better than McCain. Neither of those caricatures is remotely accurate, and a John McCain presidency would be an unmitigated disaster on every level.

But it's critical to keep in mind that Obama is a politician and, like all people, is plagued by significant imperfections. He has largely entrenched himself in, and is dependent upon, the power structure he says he wants to undermine. Uncritical devotion to political leaders, including him, is destructive. Obama needs pressure, criticism, checks, and real scrutiny just like anyone else in power in order to keep him accountable, responsive, and faithful to the principles he claims are the ones driving him.

Pressure of that sort should include demanding that he take meaningful action against this Draconian and lawlessness-enabling bill. This is, after all, a bill which his own party is seeking to pass and justifying their behavior, in part, by claiming that they're doing it to protect Obama politically from being attacked as Weak on Terrorism. If this bill passes and Obama does nothing to stop it, he'll bear significant responsibility for its enactment. Here's his campaign's phone number: (866) 675-2008. I'll post other contact information as people leave it in comments.

(snip)

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/

I don't really have too much to add, other than that I agree with Mr. Greenwald.  Barack Obama is our nominee, and we must support him.  However, we should remember that he's not only a human being (shocker to some), but an ambitious politician who will at times, and FISA is now an example, knowingly do the wrong thing in order to gain power (REAL shocker to some).  

We have to support him as much as we can, while keeping as much pressure on him as we can to ensure that he pushes our agenda, and not the agenda he believes will help his political career.

So, to all MyDDers out there, if you care about warrantless wiretapping and our Constitution, I suggest you take just a minute or two off from donating to Obama, canvassing for Obama, and making phone calls for Obama, and instead pick up the phone, call Obama's campaign, tell them how horribly wrong our candidate is on this issue, and urge them to get the message to Obama that his constituents are demanding the change that he keeps promising us, as it relates to the Bush administration's warrantless wiretapping program.

UPDATE: Thanks for my first Rec List diary. And apologies to anyone in the comments that is attempting to offer constructive criticism of my diary, but are using the term "concern troll" in the process. I have thin skin as it relates to that term. In fact, its one of the reasons I left Daily Kos. This apology extends to everyone but the first person who commented in my diary, because that person was simply making a personal attack without and positive intent. Also, I would suggest a strategy to influence the warrantless wiretapping debate, make our "concerns" known to our nominee, and still support our nominee, at the same time. We only have one candidate left now, and so it is now Barack Obama's personal responsibility to stand up for our Democratic ideals. I would suggest donating to the ACLU and/or to Regina Thomas' campaign, and then contacting the Obama campaign, informing them of your contribution, and telling them you'll match the contribution to the Obama campaign if the Senator speaks out in favor of killing the FISA "compromise". You can donate to Regina Thomas here: http://www.actblue.com/page/blueamerica08 And you can donate to the ACLU, which I recently joined, here: http://action.aclu.org/site/PageServer?pagename=FJ_donationhome UPDATE II: Wow, I can't believe I got my first Rec List diary on the same day I had my rec/rate privileges taken away without explanation, and probably due to losing my anger at someone who stalked me yesterday, and is stalking me in this very diary. What a bittersweet moment. I don't know whether to GBCW or pen another diary - and I'm being serious. UPDATE III: Looks like McJoan, the front-pager at Daily Kos, is a concern troll like me for stating: """Call Barack Obama and urge him to make a public statement reiterating his opposition to telco amnesty. His opposition could kill this deal: Phone (202) 224-2854, Fax (202) 228-4260""". DAMN THOSE FRONT PAGE DAILY KOS CONCERN TROLLS OUT TO SABOTAGE OBAMA - DAMN YOU MCJOAN!!!!!!!

Display:


Tips for warrants required to wiretap us. (2.00 / 21)


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 10:37:34 AM EST

Re: Tips for warrants required to wiretap us. (1.52 / 17)

I appreciate your concern but this Koolaid is Delicious.


by DemsLandslide2008 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 10:39:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah, the bleet bleeting of the sheep. (2.00 / 3)

BAAAAAAAAAAA, BAAAAAAAA


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 10:42:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

TRd for personal attack. I'm no concern troll. nt (2.00 / 8)


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 10:43:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TRd for personal attack. I'm no concern troll. (1.45 / 11)

You don't have any idea why people think you may be a concern troll?  

If that is true I will be happy to explain it to you.  Please let me know.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:08:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No, but thanks for the personal attack! nt (2.00 / 7)


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:10:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, but thanks for the personal attack! nt (1.57 / 7)

It wasn't meant to be a personal attack.  As an Obama supporter I can tell you that your diary comes off as a bit concern trollish.  You don't seem to understand why that is.  

I was offering to help you.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:18:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Fair enough. Sorry I can't seem to retract the TR. (2.00 / 4)

I'm open to any constructive criticism.  I know that there are some out there who will take any diary that is critical of Barack Obama as a concern troll diary, and I thought my diary was pretty damn tame, but I'm also aware that there's always room for improvement, so fire away with any critique you find constructive.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:22:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fair enough. Sorry I can't seem to retract the (2.00 / 1)

JJE does a good job here of describing the issue.  

I would add that if there are any people who are uncritically devoted to Obama then they aren't going to read this diary.  Writing a diary addressed to them is just not going to begin a discussion about the issue Greenwald brings up.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:35:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Mojo to offset the TR. BTW: Admins should make it (2.00 / 2)

so we can change ratings.  Sometimes people TR because they don't understand a post, and sometimes they do it 100% by accident.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:55:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mojo to offset the TR. BTW: Admins should make (2.00 / 0)

Don't sweat it man.  Have a great day.


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:56:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I often find that a good way of wakign up people (2.00 / 0)

is to threaten a trollrating. I generally don't find the need to toss one on, if they come back to the discussion. ;0)


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:09:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fair enough. Sorry I can't seem to retract the (none / 0)

I have been a staunch Obama supporter since Jan. of 07' yet I wrote a D-Kos diary attacking Obama's AIPAC speech. I didn't hesitate to speak out and voice my disagreement with Obama.

Obama supporters are activists. That Obama has herded these cats into the same campaign working in consort is a tribute to the Obama Campaign's grassroots culture.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:06:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We need unity up until November (none / 0)

then we can go back to being our same old bickering, election-losing selves.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:44:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, but thanks for the personal attack! nt (1.00 / 1)

Don't be ridiculous. It's over we are all Obama supporters now. Can we go back to being progressive.

Concern troll snort


by redwagon on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 01:38:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for warrants required to wiretap us. (2.00 / 3)

Demslandslide, you rarely comment anything of substance, but that was funny!  :)


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 10:44:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for warrants required to wiretap us. (1.77 / 9)

PJ -- The ones who call you a concern troll are the ones who have their head stuck up Obama's arse so far they think the shizt don't stink anymore. We are electing a candidate to reprsent all our hopes and wishes that he sold us on and that the BUSH administartion sold us out on...

and we don't hold Obama accountable. we are no better than the 28% of voters who still support bush.

I have notice all of them dispensers of " concern trool/ rep troll/ etc"  not just some of these characters - are politically immature and have no clue about accountability.

All they are, are the counter parts of the partisan republican hacks on the other side. Extreme example but---Obama could drop a nuke on homeless children and these guys will celebrate it , because its Obama.

Their sole objective is to chant yes we can, not because they believe in the power of the people to expect better. But because of the sheep mentality...

Troll rate away- cause the ones who gonna --are the ones I speak off.


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:45:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No, you're a sheep (1.66 / 3)

Take that.


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:52:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for warrants required to wiretap us. (2.00 / 2)

No the problem here is he is making two seperate points.   That we need to be capable of holding our candidate accountable and questioning him.  And that he is supporting something because of guilt by association.  The first point it worthwhile.  The second point should be done differently, and not so much on guilt by association, in a seperate diary.  By the way he did it, I feel he has launched an unneeded attack on Obama in the concern troll format.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:21:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for warrants required to wiretap us. (2.00 / 1)

"Obama could drop a nuke on homeless children and these guys will celebrate it , because its Obama."

And McCain could eat babies, and you'd agree to it, because it's McCain.

Still not seen you mention a single policy of McCain you disagree with.


by Aris Katsaris on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 02:56:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for warrants required to wiretap us. (none / 0)

Obama could drop a nuke on homeless children and these guys will celebrate it , because its Obama.

Troll rate away, but you're an ass.


by Mystylplx on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 10:04:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Best not to nip on the sauce before posting (none / 0)

Just a hint.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:46:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are a concern troll =) (none / 0)

But I recced you anyways !

Seriously, your diary is listing your concerns (which I happen to agree with), and many people will take those expression of concern as expressing ill will towards the progressive cause...which is trolling in this blog.

Therefore, the "concern troll" label applies...wear it proudly, my friend =)


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:45:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Uncritical Obama Devotion Is Destructive? (2.00 / 4)

No problem. I've yet to see any of the cultish behavior we've often been lambasted with. Personally, I think it's stupid to kill NASA's budget; if anything, we should double it, and when we get Senator Obama elected, you damn well better bet I'll be on his case about that issue, among others.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 10:42:57 AM EST

NASA's budget? nt (none / 0)


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 10:43:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I never used the term cultish. Its divisive, and (2.00 / 2)

inapplicable.  I'm not suggesting supporters are so brainwashed they can see no evil, I'm suggesting they think the best thing for Democrats to do is STFU and let Obama do his thing, while others, such as Greenwald, disagree.  


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 10:46:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Greenwald is terrific (none / 0)

but dead wrong.  We need those wooly-minded middle of the road independents and repentant repubs to help us with a mandate.  Any hint that things are not on the up and up with Obama will give the poor stupes the second thoughts disease and drive them into the arms of McCain.  In other words, put a sock in it and trust our nominee, he is the sharpest candidate we've had since forever.  He won't let us down too badly, I think.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:58:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm all for doubling NASA's budget... (2.00 / 1)

...during President Obama's second term.

During his first term, he's going to have his work cut out for him just righting the ship after eight years of Bush disasters.

But during his second term - hell yes.  Someone needs to be the first to say that our future as a race is out there, not on this planet, and be the first to devote major resources to humanity's next step.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:04:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Uncritical Obama Devotion Is Destructive? (none / 0)

Wait a minute, I'm not familiar with tis... what about NASA's budget?


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 09:25:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greenwald: Uncritical Obama Devotion Is Destru (2.00 / 3)

good post


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 10:45:26 AM EST

Re: (2.00 / 6)

No one said that people are required to be uncritical of the nominee.  However, when people dredge up stupid smears just to knock him down, they deserve to be called on it.


by rfahey22 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 10:45:40 AM EST

Agreed. (2.00 / 8)

Democrats should not be pushing Obama muslim smears, or Michelle hates America smears, but we should be able to discuss policy decisions, like FISA, that we disagree with.  


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 10:47:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Looking forward to those diaries (1.75 / 4)

not these.  Every Obama "critique" diary on this site so far has been a dogwhistle-rich cynical smear job.

"Bleeet bleeet."  Right, no bias here...


"Because after an eight-year hiatus it is vital to have a president who leads the country instead of lassoing, roping and branding it." Shaun Appleby
by chrisblask on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 10:58:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Where in my diary did I say bleet bleet? WTF?!? (2.00 / 2)


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:11:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think chrisblask is referring to (1.00 / 1)

the subject line of your first non-tip jar comment.


by Poor Yorick on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:33:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Perhaps I shouldn't lower myself to someone elses (1.66 / 3)

level, but when called a concern troll drinking kool aid in the very first comment to my diary, I responded by calling the guy a sheep.  

I still think he's a sheep, and in particular an Obama sheep that thinks Obama is not really human and can do no wrong, but I should have kept that thought to myself.

Apologies to anyone and everyone who was bothered by opinions I should have kept private.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:36:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm still waiting for what you didn't like about (2.00 / 4)

my DIARY.  Not my response to being called a concern troll in the comments, but the content of the DIARY.

I don't believe there is bleet bleet, or the word sheep, or any such suggestion, so I'm a bit put off by your comment.  

But now I'm concerned that you'll fabricate something to be upset about, instead of apologizing for claiming I said bleet bleet in the diary, because hardly anyone around here ever admits to being wrong or apologizes for anything.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:30:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm still waiting for what you didn't like (1.66 / 3)

Ah, the bleet bleeting of the sheep.

BAAAAAAAAAAA, BAAAAAAAA

That is you, eh?

I'm getting tired of replying to troll diaries of one sort or another.  Here's my one for you:

"Yes.  Worshiping anyone is bad."

But that is not what I or anyone else I know is doing with Sen. Obama.  And your track record does not indicate that you are either immune to hero worship nor objective in your diary-ing.

So, your next diary will be what?  "It would be terrible if Obama Worshippers all suddenly started killing babies!!"?


"Because after an eight-year hiatus it is vital to have a president who leads the country instead of lassoing, roping and branding it." Shaun Appleby
by chrisblask on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:50:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Track record? WTF? Stay on topic, please. (2.00 / 3)

By bringing up my alleged track record, you're ignoring the diary and hijacking the thread.  

First, you claim that my diary was about calling people sheep.  Then you quote a comment that is not contained within my diary, to "prove" your "point".  Then you bring up my alleged "track record", and then you finish by suggesting my next diary will be about Obama "worshippers" "killing babies".

I would suggest that you look in the mirror, and start issuing some apologies.  You're not part of the solution right now, you're part of the problem.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:59:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Try harder to be less concern trolly (1.85 / 7)

However, we should remember that he's not only a human being (shocker to some), but an ambitious politician who will at times, and FISA is now an example, knowingly do the wrong thing in order to gain power (REAL shocker to some).

I haven't met anyone who thinks Obama is more than a human being.  Who are these people who you think will be shocked by your statement?

You will get a better response to your concerns about this issue if you stopped with the thinly veiled shots at Obama supporters.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:05:11 AM EST

So the word some wasn't enough for you, huh? nt (2.00 / 4)


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:11:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So the word some wasn't enough for you, huh? n (1.83 / 6)

Nope.  There isn't one person on the planet who thinks Obama is more than a man.  The only reason for you to write that sentence is to take a jab at Obama supporters.


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:20:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The problem is you're reading too literally. Ever (2.00 / 2)

heard him called "transcendent"?  


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:32:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, the more you respond (1.33 / 3)

the greater credence you give to the bias people are suggesting. Might want to ratchet down the defensiveness a notch.


by Poor Yorick on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:35:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You thought my response about transcendent was (2.00 / 3)

overly defensive?

Thats the problem with the internet, all nuances are lost.  My tone (which you can't read on a computer monitor) was certainly not defensive.  I'm having a conversation.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:38:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You thought my response about transcendent was (2.00 / 3)

This is what I dislike about the 'tubes' the most.  Folks can be completely genuine, and be called all kinds of names because the person on the other end has 'read' something not even there into the comment.

That aside, I think that folks around these parts are far too quick to dismiss any opinion thats not rousing praise of Obama, and then deride any attempts to explain or defend one's own position in that sense.  It amounts to 'keep your opinion to yourself, if it's not completely in line with mine, and if you do proclaim it, then you better not explain why'.
That's not discussion nor discourse, folks, it's mental masturbation.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:45:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

ayup if i ever write my how not to be an asshole (2.00 / 1)

diary, it will include "let bygones be bygones" -- if someone blows up for something you didn't say, apologize for the misunderstanding, and try to empathize with their reaction to what they thought youw ere saying.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:12:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You thought my response about transcendent was (1.00 / 5)

I do seem to remember you shooting your wad all over hillary.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 01:54:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You thought my response about transcendent was (2.00 / 4)

Funny, I think I remember giving one of your recent more deserving comments 'mojo', and here you are again, doing nothing more than being insulting.

Trying to be the back legs of the unity pony all by yourself I see?

Good freakin' grief, give it a rest already!


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:59:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe Hillary likes having your wad (1.00 / 2)

shot at her. Why assume it's an insult? How about some unity love for the wad-shooters?


by Mobar on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:21:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And this is why (none / 0)

I write so earnestly on mydd. Because it's full of people who need TAGS and BIG WARNING SIGNS for snark.


by Mobar on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 10:58:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You thought my response about transcendent was (none / 0)

No, that was your side's much beloved Bob Johnson with his downright slanderous "I slept with Hillary" diary over on the orange sewer.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 09:16:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Use emoticons liberally (2.00 / 0)

it helps with the clarification! ;-)


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:11:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Use emoticons liberally (none / 0)

Just don't use them conservatively or neo-conservatively, whatever you do.

:-)


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 01:57:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

definition of transcendent, words are important. (none / 0)

Transcendence doesn't always refer to something spiritual or beyond human comprehension.  But I can see how someone who has a preconceived (dare I say, biased) notion of Obama supporters might want to pick that word to show what they consider the loopiness of the phenomenon.

It can also mean significant.  I think a black man becoming president is pretty transcendent, don't you?


by Tenafly Viper on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 01:17:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

good point. (2.00 / 5)

but i think the irony of your point has been reflecting in some of the comments so far.  rec'd.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:06:40 AM EST

Ain't that the truth! Like it is....CG! n/t (2.00 / 4)


by bobswern on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:38:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: good point. (2.00 / 1)

No he had two seperate points.  And the attack on Obama is cloaked in the the very valid first argument which I assume you are supporting (and I support as well).  He then goes on to make an attack on Obama, based on guilt by association, which is the main point of his diary, as proven by his first comment.

Tips for warrants required to wiretap us


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:25:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Criticism is the Truest Form of Patriotism (2.00 / 4)

... but be intelligent (first and foremost) and try to be nice. Not that I'm one to talk, I swear a mean blue streak.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:14:24 AM EST

Um, Obama opposes the Protect AT&T (none / 0)

act. What's your point?


by bobdoleisevil on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:15:21 AM EST

Thanks for... ummm.. taking the time to read it?nt (2.00 / 6)


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:18:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Huh? (1.50 / 2)

This is on the rec list with a whopping 3 recs?  How does that work?

No offense to the diarist, just a meta question.


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:18:21 AM EST

I have no idea, but I'm not going to complain. :) (2.00 / 3)


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:19:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't blame you. (2.00 / 1)

Listen, I agree with the notion that we should not blindly support Obama (or anyone or thing for that matter), but a fair amount of what you're reacting to is pushback on all-out hit diaries.  

Also, there have been a number of "concern" diaries lately, and folks are quick to react when they catch a whiff of that stuff.  The staunch Obama defenders of MyDD have been conditioned to have hair triggers.

Despite this, It does seem to be getting better around here overall.  Hopefully, with more time, we'll all resume our normal democratic postures and get back to promoting and defending our individual and collective progressive ideals, regardless of who stands in opposition (R, I, or, D).

As for the rec list berth, do me a favor:

Drop into my latest diary.  It's on Iraq, and doesn't criticize anyone but Bush and McCain.  Help a brother out, eh?

;)


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:51:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Done. Tipped and rec'd. Nice spreadsheet, or (2.00 / 2)

graph or whatever you call it.

With all the Repubs talking about how The Surge Is Working (tm), visuals like that really take the wind out of their sails.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:09:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Done. Tipped and rec'd. Nice spreadsheet, or (none / 0)

Thanks for taking a look.  It's a pain to make a table in html.  :)


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:26:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

quick recs... (2.00 / 2)

a few quick readers liked it.
or a few zombies who just liked the title.
His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:22:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: quick recs... (2.00 / 1)

Still, 3 recs is the threshold?  I did a diary on Iraq yesterday, got three or four Recs, and promptly slid off the page into obscurity.

Maybe vestigal from the primary wars, where candidate diaries were the only ones to get any traction...


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:31:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huh? (none / 0)

What's with the TR abuse?!?


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 12:15:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree with Greenwald (2.00 / 0)

up to the point where said criticism enables a McCain White House. In my mind, this is a vastly premature sentiment, this many months from election.


by Neef on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:18:39 AM EST

A better way to address this issue (2.00 / 10)

would be to make the diary about FISA primarily, rather than using FISA as a means by which to attack the nonexistent people

on MyDD who [claim that] since Barack Obama won the Democratic nomination, that it is inappropriate to discuss anything negative about either the Democratic nomination process, or our Democratic nominee.

The problem here is that most of the anti-Obama diaries are not critiques from the left, but rather (1) repetitions of smears in the guise of concern; or (2) thinly-veiled attacks on Obama supporters as worshipful sheep.

Diaries that focus on the issues and critique Obama's position substantively will get a better reception than ones that can be summarized as "Obama camp trashes Muslims" or "Why won't Obama fanboyz acknowledge his flaws?"


by JJE on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:19:21 AM EST

Thanks for the input. I understand where you're (2.00 / 2)

coming from.  I thought my diary was mostly in line with what you're saying, but I can see how it could be tweaked a bit for the benefit of readers who are really strong Obama supporters.  


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:26:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greenwald: Uncritical Obama Devotion Is Destru (2.00 / 3)

Im all for asking the hard questions and being critical of the person in power; we should all be; its the one lesson Pres. Bush has taught us: always ask effing questions----


"Rankles and Rush Limbaugh, ruining the chaos brand since 2008."
by alyssa chaos on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:23:58 AM EST

Lessons from Bush (none / 0)

Bush also taught me not to trust a Republican unless I have it in writing.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 01:59:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lessons from Bush (2.00 / 1)

Bush also taught me: even a complete dumbass can be president.



"Rankles and Rush Limbaugh, ruining the chaos brand since 2008."
by alyssa chaos on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:53:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fair Use (2.00 / 1)

How much of an article constitutes Fair Use?

I believe you are in direct violation of site rules and fair use statute by quoting so much of the article.  I strongly suggest you go back and take three paragraphs.

Oh and reasonable debate is okay, but someone who only dredges up negative stuff can reasonably be suspected of being a concern troll.


accepting McLettuce is like being 9 years old and forced to eat your own cooking
by Sychotic1 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:26:23 AM EST

Couldn't I call you a concern troll about fair use (2.00 / 3)

Seriously - I swear this is not snark.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:27:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Couldn't I call you a concern troll about fair (1.33 / 3)

It's not like the PUMA's don't repeat this diary (in 2 sentences) over and over in the comments section. It's a slow news week, that's for sure.


No way. No how. No McCain!
by spacemanspiff on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:41:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Couldn't I call you a concern troll about fair (none / 0)

Violating fair use puts the whole site at risk.  Get real.


accepting McLettuce is like being 9 years old and forced to eat your own cooking
by Sychotic1 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 08:31:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greenwald: (2.00 / 3)

Newsflash: Uncritical Devotion to anyone is destructive.


by heyhellowhatsnew on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:32:20 AM EST

Re: Greenwald: Uncritical Obama Devotion (2.00 / 0)

Regina Thomas is so much better than John Barrow and so much better-regarded locally, and not just in the black community. I hope she kicks his butt.


by Jim J on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:38:56 AM EST

Re: Greenwald: Uncritical Obama Devotion (1.50 / 4)

we should remember that he's not only a human being (shocker to some), but an ambitious politician who will at times, and FISA is now an example, knowingly do the wrong thing in order to gain power (REAL shocker to some).  

Condescending to some, I would say.

www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:52:56 AM EST

I should've left the first part out, but the (2.00 / 1)

second part probably needed to be said.

There are those out there who know he is human, but don't believe he's ambitious.  

At least that's the feeling I got from being a former Hillary supporter, and constantly having to read about how ambitious she is, and how willing she would be to throw Democratic principles under the bus to get elected, in comparison to Obama.  

When you claim people should vote for Obama over Hillary specifically because Hillary is ambitious and will say or do anything to get elected, you are implying that Obama is not ambitious and would never say or do anything un-Democratic to get elected.

But again, I agree with this comment and some other comments above that everyone knows he's human, so that was over the top.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:14:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That comment is so tame (2.00 / 1)

it comes from an Obama supporter. People are WAY too thin-skinned. Our democracy does not work when people are blindly devoted.


by catfish2 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:33:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greenwald: Uncritical Obama Devotion (2.00 / 1)

I'm wondering how you would have him put that.


by redwoodsummer on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:29:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Did it hit a nerve? (2.00 / 1)

Sensitive?


by catfish2 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:34:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't think many would disagree (2.00 / 2)

that blind zealotry is always a bad thing. Constructive criticism is perfectly acceptable, provided it isn't unnecessarily damaging to our nominee.

Were I you, I wouldn't be so concerned.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:59:38 AM EST

Re: Greenwald... (2.00 / 4)

I don't  know that Greenwald's characterization of all the issues is entirely correct, but even if I concede that it is, it is no reason to start bashing him.  What I am opposed to is when diaries take individual events/actions/moments and point them out and then try to tie them to a larger theme.  That larger theme being Obama is dishonest/fraud/conservative and on and on.  He has said "I'm an imperfect vessel".  And that he is.  I guess what I want is probalby not possible, which is to criticize him when warranted, but to avoid then claiming "I always knew he was a fake".  This is when Obama supporters come out strongly to defend him.  And in that haste, some of us attack the unfairuness of critique without always examining its substance.  I think he wll move the country and Washington in a progressive direction, but there's going to be setbacks, and disappointments.  Believe it or not, I realize he's not a deity.  Change is hard.  He knows that, most of his supporters know that.  I should also say This diary was not among the worst, I don't think it was overly negative, but your additional commentary saying it was shocking to some that Obama's a human being, obscured the message, which is a good one to remember.  Ill use a tortured metaphor in closing, keep his feet to the fire, but don't burn him at the stake.


by cycl06 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:11:23 PM EST

Good point. (2.00 / 1)

In retrospect I would take out the human being part.  It was over the top and inflammatory, which did not help me get my point across.  Of course people know he's human, as others have pointed out.

However, I believe the second point is important.  I do believe that some of his supporters think that they should just sit back and let him do his thing, but that's not how democracy works, especially in the age of lobbyists.  We need to, as you stated, hold his feet to the fire - not just hold sticks to the fire and make him smores while we sing kumbaya.  


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:22:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good point. (none / 0)

i agree wholeheartedly.  I think this is something that we as a community are working through.  How to discuss our candidate after a very contentious primary?  

To address the main focus of your post, I would say it is dissappointing, but not unexpected.  I don't see how politically he could tell Dems in Congress, "If you're not a real progressive, I, the presumptive Democratic nominee (who almost half the party didn't back) will try to unseat you"  Its a non-starter, and he would get nothing done.  My hope is that he would take these steps after he won the election, but again, I find that unlikely (I'd arbitrarily put the odds at 35-65 he'd try to unseat them).  Which leads me to my last question for discussion.  How then, do we send a message to Obama and his campaign?  Calling/emailing of course.  But how do we send a real message of consequence?  My first thought is to donate, help out if able, these primary challengers.  Beyond that, I'm not sure.


by cycl06 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:42:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Donating to the primary challenger would seem to (none / 0)

be the most effective approach.

I updated the diary with a link to do just that, btw. :)


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 01:28:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's policy, acts (none / 0)

I'm glad to see this because it isn't the person who is running that I thought was why everyone blogged but the fact they wanted real policy change that is in favor of working America, in the national interest and for the people.


NoSlaves.com | The Economic Populist
by Robert Oak on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:14:48 PM EST

Re: Greenwald: Uncritical Obama Devotion Is Destru (2.00 / 3)

"And apologies to anyone in the comments that is attempting to offer constructive criticism of my diary, but are using the term "concern troll" in the process. I have thin skin as it relates to that term. In fact, its one of the reasons I left Daily Kos."

It's a lame way to practice name-calling.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:15:48 PM EST

Re: Greenwald: Uncritical Obama Devotion Is Destru (1.50 / 2)

How do you practice?


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:19:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How to make a good case... (1.83 / 6)

How do you make a good case that you are honestly concerned about an issue and not a concern troll?  It's pretty simple, the concern should be an isolated thread in your discourse so that the case can be clearly made that you are in general a fan, with a few minor doubts.  If however, everything you post about the topic is negative or counter to the side you are pretending to be on, you are likely a concern troll.  Let's experiement with diary titles.

Obama camp re-names DNC "Animal Farm"

Compares Obama's campaign and the DNC to an Orwellian totalitarian regime.

Poll: Majority of Dems want Hillary as VP

Positive Clinton diary, that can't help but mention "some say" Obama is a secret muslim terrorist.

Updatedx2: Bill Clinton/Gina Gershon affair claim debunked

Positive Bill Clinton diary.

MSNBC Obama Propaganda Exposed

Obama attack diary citing The New Republic.

Did Obama Accuse Clinton Of Plotting His Assasination?

Defense of Clinton RFK statements.

Obama Trolls: Please Stop It.

Aww, the poor guy so offended by being called a concern troll seems to love calling others trolls.

Response to Color of Change Obama Propaganda

Obama attack diary.

What Happens When Bob Johnson Tells The Truth? UPDATED

Defense of Geraldine Ferraro comments about Obama only being where he is because he is black.

AIr America: Rhodes Sucked and Did Us a Favor?

Attacking Rhandi Rhodes for the terrible things she said about Clinton.

Daily Kos' Mission: Electing Democrats?

Attacking DailyKos.

And so on...

A Response To clammyc
Daily Obamafication of the Internet Continues
Daily Obama Not Enough: Daily Kos Infiltrating MyDD?
Wherein I Prove Kos A Liar

So no, this is not the pattern of a truly concerned Obama supporter, if it was you would see Pro-Obama diaries mixed in with his concern.  

Conern troll, plain and simple.


by libertyleft on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:42:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice try, stalker. (2.00 / 3)

First of all, your diary history at MyDD:

ZERO

I would accept criticism from someone who has taken the time to contribute a lot more than someone who hasn't.

Second, where do I start?

Let's experiement with diary titles.

Experiment isn't exactly the word I'd use.  Hatchet job perhaps.

Lets see...

Obama camp re-names DNC "Animal Farm"

How did you characterize it?

Compares Obama's campaign and the DNC to an Orwellian totalitarian regime.

Hmmm.  Was that a fair characterization?  Let's see.  Perhaps I should quote the diary:

Preface:  This diary is in response to all those who call people who used to support Hillary Clinton, and are now going to vote for Barack Obama, "deadenders", simply because we refuse to rewrite history, we remember how this race unfolded, and we're not happy about it

Hmm, let's see.  You wouldn't slander me with lies twice though would you?

Poll: Majority of Dems want Hillary as VP

And you say

can't help but mention "some say" Obama is a secret muslim terrorist.

Wow, I've been Rush Limbaugh'd.  Thanks, Mr. Hannity, for playing fun with cutting up people's words, taking them out of context, and slandering them with them.  You were able to convince many people who are too lazy to read the diary that I attacked Obama as a secret muslim terrorist.  I DID NO SUCH THING!!!

Updatedx2: Bill Clinton/Gina Gershon affair claim debunked

Positive Bill Clinton diary.

Yeah, genius - WHILE HILLARY WAS STILL RUNNING AND I WAS A HILLARY SUPPORTER!!!

MSNBC Obama Propaganda Exposed

Obama attack diary citing The New Republic.

It was not an Obama attack diary, you fucking liar and slanderer.  It was regarding an article entitled "The pro-Obama case against MSNBC's pro-Obama political coverage".  It was about MSNBC, not Barack Obama, slanderer.

Did Obama Accuse Clinton Of Plotting His Assasination?

Defense of Clinton RFK statements.

Defense of Clinton RFK statements?  Defense?  Defend WHAT?  What was there that required defending?  Come right out and say it.  I'd love to see you claim that Hillary called for Obama to be assasinated.  AND AGAIN THIS DIARY WAS FROM WHEN HILLARY WAS RUNNING AND I WAS A HILLARY SUPPORTER, GENIUS!!!

Obama Trolls: Please Stop It.

Aww, the poor guy so offended by being called a concern troll seems to love calling others trolls.

That diary was about people rushing in to hijack threads from the most well known Hillary supporters AND IT WAS WRITTEN WHEN HILLARY WAS STILL RUNNING AND I WAS ONE OF HER SUPPORTERS, GENIUS!!!  

Response to Color of Change Obama Propaganda

Obama attack diary.

Fucking LIAR!!!!  It wasn't an Obama attack diary.  It was an attack on an organization known as Color of Change, for an email they sent me WHEN I WAS A HILLARY SUPPORTER AND THE RACE WAS FARRRRRRRR FROM OVER!!!!!

What Happens When Bob Johnson Tells The Truth? UPDATED

Defense of Geraldine Ferraro comments about Obama only being where he is because he is black.

Nice try.  I welcome anyone and everyone to read it, and judge for themselves.  I'm not ashamed of that diary.  I'm ashamed at libertyleft stalking me, but not that diary.

AIr America: Rhodes Sucked and Did Us a Favor?

Attacking Rhandi Rhodes for the terrible things she said about Clinton.

Not really.  More the opposite.  I was just passing along a snippet that I read on Huffington Post indicating that Randi Rhodes may have been fired because they didn't want to pay her a fat contract anymore, and used the Clinton comments as an excuse.  

Obviously you didn't read any of my diaries in your rush to commit this smear job.

Daily Kos' Mission: Electing Democrats?

Attacking DailyKos.

I wasn't attacking Daily Kos.  I was pointing out that one of Daily Kos' top diarists, who is now one of MyDD's top diarists, was really unethical when it came to ways to beat Hillary Clinton - see: "How Do We Make Clinton Unelectable? Part II
by slinkerwink"

And so on...

And so on indeed, slanderer.  So on, indeed.

A Response To clammyc

A diary responding to a request for Hillary supporters to return to Daily Kos, with reasons why I would not do so.  What the fuck is your point, except to stalk me?

Daily Obamafication of the Internet Continues

A diary pointing out that on Daily Kos, they were authoring diaries telling people to come over here to MyDD, and chase away Hillary supporters.  BTW, this diary was from MARCH 2008, and ITS FROM RIGHT AFTER I LEFT DAILY KOS AND CAME HERE, GENIUS!!!  

Daily Obama Not Enough: Daily Kos Infiltrating MyDD?

See above, GENIUS.

Wherein I Prove Kos A Liar

See above, GENIUS.  In addition, this diary was in response to Markos Moulitsas LYING and saying he only went into anti-Clinton hate propaganda after it was mathematically assured that she lost the race.  I PROVED that he went propaganda in JANUARY, 2008, BEFORE SUPER TUESDAY.  That is another diary I am proud of and welcome any MyDD'er to read.

So no, this is not the pattern of a truly concerned Obama supporter, if it was you would see Pro-Obama diaries mixed in with his concern.  

Conern troll, plain and simple.

You quote pro-Clinton diaries from March, when I was a Hillary supporter and the race was far from over, to "prove" that I'm an Obama concern troll?  What the fuck is wrong with you? Why are you slandering me?  Are you just continuing an argument from the other day, and stalking me?


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 02:03:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Libel, not slander. (1.00 / 1)

It's not stalking to look at your diaries.

Calm the fuck down.

Before reading this comment, I tended to believe that you were genuinely interested in learning how to send fewer "troll" signals.

Again, please calm the fuck down and re-engage that part of you that's interested in discussing moving the democratic party forward.

Thank you.


by Mobar on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 02:22:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Perhaps if you knew the background. I'm being stal (2.00 / 2)

ked by libertyleft.  We got into it the other day, he ran to the admins and had me warned, and now appears to have had my rec/rate abilities cut off.  Not content, he's taken to smearing me, and I'm the one who gets told to "calm the fuck down".

Wow.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 02:31:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Unless the background involves (1.50 / 2)

liberty left tracking you down in real life and inte