[UPDATED] - The VP case for Clark

Update [2008-6-24 12:1:43 by Falsehood]: I just found an interesting quote from an old Times article:
Senator Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut has said that the general's joining the Democratic Party was a matter of ''political convenience, not conviction.''

Hello All,

I'm sure that more than I know goes into the Vice Presidential Selection, and I don't think any of us will be able to judge the outsome from the outside, but I'm very confused as to why Wesley Clark isn't on the VP short list.

First, he's retired General. Obama can say, "General Clark and I..." over and over, giving him national security credence. His leadership in the armed forces also contrasts with McCain's short career in the armed forces. He was also West Point Valedictorian, compared to McCain, who finished near bottom at Annapolis. Their military careers are of entirely different scales - Clark stayed in, but McCain went to Washington.

Second, he has real national security experience as the former Supreme Commander of NATO, but also butted heads with the Clinton administration. No one can dispute his foreign policy experience, but he was with Obama on being against the Iraq War.

Third, he's was a strong Clinton supporter, and picking him would honor that portion of the primary voters who sided with Clinton over Obama. Obama needs their time and talent, but importantly, he needs them to be motivated. Wesley Clark would be worth may volunteer hours.

Fourth, he got in trouble in 1993 while planning for the Bosnia and Herzegovina conflict because he met with controversial Bosnian military leaders - the exact thing that Obama is targeted for in McCain's web ads, but an issue where the American people are with Obama and Clark.

Fifth, Clark praised George Bush publicly in 2001, before 9/11. He can act as someone who supported and liked Bush, but has now been forced by circumstances to change his mind, just as many people have.

Other ideas?



Display:


Re: The VP case for Clark (none / 0)

I thought he was on the short list? I agree, I don't see why not, even though there are plenty of good options.


by Dog Chains on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:34:28 AM EST

Re: The VP case for Clark (none / 0)

I thought he was on the short list as well.


by Politicalslave on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:44:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP case for Clark (none / 0)

Nope, at least not here:

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 008/06/10/1127710.aspx


by Falsehood on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:04:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP case for Clark (none / 0)

Not much from me, but I think Cenk hits it dead on here.
(disclaimer- The Clark family does have a personal/friend relationship with Cenk, the narrator of this video)


by DemsLandslide2008 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:37:51 AM EST

Re: The VP case for Clark (none / 0)

I have a suspicion that Clark and Obama would relate really well and complement each other at an intellectual level.


by Mobar on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:42:07 AM EST

they would (none / 0)

I would love to see a genius on the ticket.

but Clark stuck with hillary, and that rules him out, or so i hear...


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:04:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I doubt that suporting Clinton is a rule-out (none / 0)

I can't believe they'd be that short-sighted.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:27:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

so i hear? (none / 0)

some say?

Support of Hillary is not a game ender. If it was, then I guess you should say goodbye to all of us Hillary Clinton supporters who are now supporting Obama... right? Same sort of logic... we just are not good enough... right? Tainted?


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:28:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

well, firing all your obama supporting (none / 0)

staff isn't exactly a way to endear yourself to Obama, I'm sure. (this was done shortly before Hillary exited).


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:35:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well, firing all your obama supporting (none / 0)

What?


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:44:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Huh? (none / 0)

What are you talking about?


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:49:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

what? am I the only one in the loop? (none / 0)

... feel free to ignore me, if you don't want to trust me. But the order came down from on high "endorse hillary or you're out" (this, again, a week or few from when she did drop out)


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:54:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what? am I the only one in the loop? (none / 0)

Erm - source that please? Seems a very odd thing to do.


by Falsehood on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:05:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

erm? sorry. (none / 0)

some of what I have to say doesn't have any source other than a little birdie told me. I listen well, and they sing sweetly.

but no sources.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:12:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I see it differently. (2.00 / 1)

She started shedding staff because the primary was coming to an end.

And I'm pretty darned sure that whether they supported a different Democrat during the primary has absolutely no factor in the VP decision.  That would be just stupid and one thing we can agree on, Obama's campaign is not stupid.


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:04:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

we can indeed agree on that! (none / 0)

... but I was talking of Clark shedding staff, not of Clinton -- I think there might have been some confusion (probably that I started! teehee!)


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:10:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is sounds like (none / 0)

rumor BS. Clark does not have a huge amount of people that work for him.

Thanks for playing


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 04:42:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the person I know... (none / 0)

you probably don't.
;-)
yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 05:19:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

also (none / 0)

about the ignoring comment.

Why don't you try and speak/write clearly so that we can understand what you are rumoring about? Ok?


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 04:43:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

oh, that's no problem! (none / 0)

It's the "please provide sources" -- when my source is a personal interview, that I was trying to say "no" to.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 05:20:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP case for Clark (2.00 / 1)

Really, it's hard to think of downsides to an Obama/Clark ticket.  In addition to the all the reasons you cited, he's a southerner who I believe could put Arkansas, Tennessee, and other such states back into play.

As much as I would personally love to see an Obama/Clinton or an Obama/Sebelius ticket, I can't help thinking Obama/Clark would be the strongest ticket of all.


by costanoan on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:16:38 AM EST

He is also (2.00 / 1)

a real liberal and progressive on many issues.


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:26:02 AM EST

I don't trust him (2.00 / 2)

In Babylon 5, vice president Clark blew up a popular ethnic president's space ship and imposed martial law.

Can we afford to ignore the prescience of popular '90s science fiction?


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:32:10 AM EST

Re: I don't trust him (2.00 / 1)

It's good to know I'm not the only geek here. I can't help but think about that every time his name comes up.  :-)


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:44:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you musta missed the feminism and scifi (none / 0)

discussion we were having a few weeks ago!

(I highly recommend Analog, fwiw).

Never seen Babylon 5. ;-)


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:55:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you musta missed the feminism and scifi (none / 0)

Babylon 5 was OK - strong story arc with very low rent production values and often cheesy dialogue.


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 07:05:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I can't help it (none / 0)

The fact that Clark is a military guy doesn't help matters any.  I keep thinking that this is going to end with Puerto Rico declaring independance and blowing up GITMO.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 03:04:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

from what I've read, he is on the list (2.00 / 3)

If I were Obama, I think I'd pick him. He is a Clinton loyalist, which would help unite the party (assuming Obama is not willing to pick Hillary herself).

He is a good communicator and has strong credentials. Watch him take apart McCain on national security here without coming across as strident:

http://www.bleedingheartland.com/showDia ry.do?diaryId=1556

Also, with Clark on the ticket we wouldn't lose a Senate seat in a state with a Republican governor if Obama won the presidency.

Matt Stoller has been making the case for Clark as VP over at Open Left:

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?dia ryId=6119

As I wrote on a different thread, I suspect Clark would help Obama with older Jewish voters too. When he was running for president, articles about how he comes from a long line of rabbis (at least his birth father did) ran in Jewish newspapers all over the place. This may seem superficial, but I think it wouldn't hurt Obama.


See if Saxby Chambliss is helping you.
by desmoinesdem on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:32:27 AM EST

Re: The VP case for Clark (2.00 / 2)

I also think he should be considered.  

First, his military credentials crush those of McCain.

Second, he stands apart as an example of the well reasoned use of force...something we've been sorely lacking.

Third, his time in NATO has made him a helluva smart foreign policy guy.  He gets the idea that action in one country isn't static, and that it affects a region and the balance of power in that region.  McCain seems to lack that knowledge.

Fourth, he's southern, and might be helpful in a place like Virginia, with a large military population.

Then again, he'd make a great SecDef.


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:45:53 AM EST

I don't think (none / 0)

he can be Sec of Def. There are a set amount of years that you need to be out of the military. Now Sec. of State, he would be great at!


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:51:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't think (none / 0)

Hmm...what's the number of years?

Of course, it doesn't prevent the CIA head from wearing his uniform every day.

Strange dichotomy.


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:55:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't think (none / 0)

10 years from date of retirement. WKC retired in 2000.


by parahammer on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:27:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't think (none / 0)

I wasn't too sure of his retirement date.

But, as with most things, Cabinet members get burnt out, so he could do it down the line, still under Obama.


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:25:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP case for Clark (none / 0)

His relationship with Clinton is probably what's keeping him off of that list - Obama's campaign has not been particularly warm toward former Clinton supporters.  While the Clinton supporting public seems to be migrating nicely, the inner circles seem to be having their issues still.

Obama is wise though to look outside of Washington and especially outside of Congress - he needs an experienced, popular governor in my opinion, preferably as far away from Washington as possible.  Warner withdrew himself from any consideration, leaving Sebelius, Richardson and Schweitzer as definite possibilities.  Schweitzer is probably the best pick, because of his interesting background and popularity in a usually red state.

I like Wes Clark, and I hope he has a place in the Obama administration, but I think Obama needs to reinforce "change" and "hope" with concrete examples - like someone that has never been caught up in Washington.


by ejintx on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:00:11 PM EST

Re: The VP case for Clark (none / 0)

Clark doesn't strike me as someone who got "caught up" in Washington. Instead, it seems more that he's been doing other stuff after a long military career. I doubt you can credibly call him a real insider.


by Falsehood on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:07:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP case for Clark (none / 0)

I doubt that he is a true insider, but I think I meant my comment to mean someone who has strong ties to Washington.  He obviously has a political tilt, and while his military experience is a tempting compliment to Obama's lack thereof, Clark is known prominently for his running in 2004 and endorsement of Clinton.  Whether it's true or not, he's politicized and what's worse for the Obama camp sensibilities - he's politicized with the Clintons.


by ejintx on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:13:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: [UPDATED] - The VP case for Clark (none / 0)

I think Clark is a great VP choice.  I don't see much of a downside.  He doesn't bring a heavy chip to the table in terms of the eletoral map, but judging by the polling trends we're seeing, I'm not sure that matters very much.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:18:59 PM EST

Re: [UPDATED] - The VP case for Clark (2.00 / 1)

I'm a huge Wes Clark fan. I still have my Clark '04 t-shirt. I feel he would complement Obama very well. He has extensive executive and military experience. He has an advantage over a governor, in that he has a strong foreign policy background. He has an advantage over a fellow senator, in that a two Senator ticket has some drawbacks. I don't see his support of Clinton as a problem at all. And finally, he is a Southern Catholic. That can't hurt.


by jadegirl on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:29:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: [UPDATED] - The VP case for Clark (none / 0)

Agree.  Good points all.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:33:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Odd question... (none / 0)

Twelfth Amendment

The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves

What state of residency is Clark currently listed in? He was born in Illinois, but I can't find where he is currently. Because, according to this, electors in Illinois (kind of a big, easy state and 21 EVs for Obama) wouldn't be able to vote for Obama/Clark if Clark currently lives there.

It's the same reason Cheney switched his residency back to Wyoming after living in Texas for years.


by TCQuad on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:20:57 PM EST

I beleive (none / 0)

he maintains homes in Arkansas and Virginia. It would be one of those two.


by parahammer on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:29:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Odd question... (2.00 / 1)

Clark is now from Arkansas.

He would be a great selection, in my opinion.  He is progressive, very intelligent, would be qualified to be President if something happened, he is charismatic, has real world experience leading the military, an outsider and would help unify the party.

Clark was first in his class at West Point.


by steveinohio on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:32:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Odd question... (none / 0)

Ah, great. Thank you. And I agree, he'd be a great selection.

I just had "Clark" and "Illinois" bouncing around in the back of my head and a Wiki search didn't assuage my concern.

Besides, it'd be a nice contrast between first in class and 894th.


by TCQuad on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:55:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: [UPDATED] - The VP case for Clark (none / 0)

I think that if they go with Clark, you're just going to hear HOWLS of complaining.  For one sole reason: he isn't Clinton.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:43:30 PM EST

Re: [UPDATED] - The VP case for Clark (none / 0)

They will get over it.

Clark brings some strong positives to the ticket. He will help tremendously in NC and VA with their large military populations.


by parahammer on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:45:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Would this guy be able to hold (none / 0)

his own in a debate on issues other than national security, especially against the odds-on favorite Tim Pawlenty?  That's my only concern with General Clark but other than that, he would be in my top five list.  Even if he's not well-versed regarding domestic matters, Obama's 59-32 advantage over McCain in Rasmussen according to economic issues will probably mitigate any troubles for Clark.


by Blazers Edge on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:49:22 PM EST

Re: Would this guy be able to hold (none / 0)

The VP debate would be one of Clark's strengths.

Clark was a top college debater at the United States Military Academy, where he was first in his class.  So he'll show up plenty smart and familiar with the format.

He's been studying domestic policy for the past several years, and had already become passable on it by the end of his 2004 run.  I'm sure that such a bright, ambitious guy is a quick study.

Check out the reverse question.  How could a GOP VP nominee like a Governor possibly hold his/her own on national security issues in a debate vs. General Clark?  That would be a striking contrast.


by steveinohio on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:04:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Would this guy be able to hold (none / 0)

Ask and you shall recieve:

Katrina:

Iran:

Political Strategy:

From 4:30 to the end, do you think Obama could use these words or sentiment?  Look at his eyes, listen to his voice.  A 4-star general who loves his country is asking for all of us to help because "It's the America You can help us Achieve!".

CHANGE  starts right here.  Right now.

Just my case for Clark.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 03:23:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Would this guy be able to hold (none / 0)

And I forgot this one also.  His take on why National Security is a weak point for McCain:


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 03:26:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Even when you put him in a dress (none / 0)

He still isn't Hillary.

Unity is a two way street.


by dtaylor2 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:03:47 PM EST

Re: Even when you put him in a dress (none / 0)

The Vice President serves at the pleasure of the President.

Party Unity is something that one should hope for because beating McCain and restoring our country to greatness is what matters the most.

Party Unity is not a tool to blackmail people with in order to get Obama to pick your preferred veep candidate.


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:01:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I guess I'm alone (none / 0)

I was a Clark supporter in 2004 and have the utmost respect for the man but I feel he would be a terrible choice for VP.  Despite conventional wisdom  I think the worst thing Obama can do when finding a VP is choose someone with military experience.  Right now the debate is: what is foreign policy experience?  McCain says it's military and Obama says it's diplomacy.  By choosing a VP with military experience Obama concedes to McCain that military=foreign policy.  Once that has been conceded, it doesn't matter who the VP is, Obama has no military experience while McCain is a war hero.

Additionally, as I pointed out in a earlier diary in recent elections balanced tickets haven't work.  Our last four tickets have been Dukakis/Bentsen, Clinton/Gore, Gore/Lieberman, and Kerry/Edwards.  Dukakis chose Bentsen to balance his ticket by bringing more experience, Gore chose Lieberman to balance his ticket by bringing in a moderate with a strong moral image, and Kerry chose Edwards to balance his ticket by bringing on a young southerner.  None of this tickets made it to the White House.  The only one that did was when young, moderate, southerner Bill Clinton chose young, moderate, southerner Al Gore.  The ticket wasn't in any way balanced but instead was enhanced.


by jlwolff on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:57:42 PM EST

Re: I guess I'm alone (none / 0)

Clark is military AND diplomatic, not just military. I get your point, but I see it differently. I think Barack can still win the argument as to what foreign policy experience is (good judgment) and then reassure people by also having a VP on hand with a shit ton of military and diplomatic experience who agrees with Barack's good judgment. I think it re-enforces Barack's position rather than weakens him.


by Quinton on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:23:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clark would be a great choice (none / 0)

Choosing a VP with military experience does not automatically confer Obama with military credentials. What it does offer is two things : 1) It tells the Beltway that Obama has a 4-star general backing him up in the Oval Office. Think about Bush's pick of Cheney. The Cheney pick told Washington insders that an experienced washington hand was available. The media narrative was that this was a solid pick. I see a Clark pick in much the same way.

2) It allows Clark to go after McCain on national security with Obama. When Obama critiques McCain on national security it is possible for some in the MSM to dismiss Obama was naive. When Clark voices the same criticisms it underscores what Obama said.

All thins being equal Obama should have a 15-20 point advantage on the economy, energy, health care, environment, getting us out of Iraq, and change. McCain will keep this race close with the threat of who do you trust in a national security crisis.


by chatters71 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:45:23 PM EST

Re: [UPDATED] - The VP case for Clark (none / 0)

I'm very open to the choice of Clark.  He's got a great background that compliments Obama nicely and would play well with independents and crossover Republicans, especially older voters who may be hesitant to take a chance on Obama because of his relative youth and inexperience.  He would blunt any national security and inexperience attacks the Republicans are sure to make.  Everyone also says he's a good progressive, although I've never heard him speak on domestic issues.

On the downside, I haven't really heard him speak enough to know whether I think he would be a good campaigner.  I also don't have any clue how well he and Obama get along and I think personal chemistry with and loyalty to the President is important for a good VP in office.  Last, he doesn't have any real political strength with a particular constituency or in any state.  


John McCain vows to overturn Roe
by soccerandpolitics on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 04:10:07 PM EST

Re: [UPDATED] - The VP case for Clark (none / 0)

Also - what state or constituency does he deliver specifically?
I don't even have any idea what state he resides in.
by devoted1 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 04:16:30 PM EST


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